|
|
Post by ManAboutTown on Feb 12, 2021 15:22:55 GMT 14
Imagine thinking that voter suppression is a thing of the past. Imagine thinking that even if voter suppression ended 40 or 50 years ago, that everything is ok now. Imagine that shirt. I'm not sure how some people do not drown every time they drink water. Teaching history is fine. Can you point to a place in America where adult citizens who are registered to vote have been prevented from doing so? Punk?? In the last 2 cycles, documented suppression in Georgia, South Carolina, West Virginia, Missouri, Northern Alabama. I would provide links and documentation but most here will call it “fake news” or find something “biased” about the reporting. It happens. It’s happened since the formation of the country. |
|
|
|
Post by BabbForHeisman on Feb 12, 2021 17:01:25 GMT 14
Part of the problem is that everything tends to be an all-or-nothing labeling game. People on the left label things as voter suppression. People on the right do exactly what you do in the post above. In reality, there is a more complex pattern to it that doesn't fit either of the talking points. If you require a government ID to vote, does it impact minority voters more than white voters? Yes. Statistically, that is an indisputable fact. But by calling that voter suppression, you are addressing the symptom of the problem rather than the root. Why don't some have IDs? What makes it more difficult or undesirable for them to get government issued IDs? That's the root of the problem. On top of that, are voting district lines equal? Are polling locations equal? That's another topic, but the key message is that it's possible to have a fact-based discussion about it without anyone playing the victim card. Statistically, that is indisputable? Once you make such proclamations there isn't much left on the table to discuss. Which statistics are your referring to and which organization has published them? The statics that I have read deal with the cost of voter IDs and access. So my questions is, how is it that many of those same people have to show identification for Medicaid Benefits, CHIPS, Social Security Disability Benefits, Food Stamps and other government benefits? You can not receive those benefits without proper identification. If cost is a factor, why is it that my mother in her 80's, on a fixed income and seldom drives can afford to buy it? Because she is white? If it's affordability, the State and Local Governments can address it by income levels. just like it is done for all government benefits. As for District lines equal, weren't they redrawn to meet Civil Rights Concerns and are monitored by the Federal Government? The answer to that question is yes. So redistricting has been done and redone, based upon government mandate. So exactly how much more should we redistrict for 15% of the population? And what about those non-minorities in those districts? Are they allowed to be disenfranchised because of past immoral acts? You don't correct immoral acts with simply imposing them again because of the past. There has to be some area of agreement to alleviate past transgressions without imposing so-called acceptable immoral policy corrections. You see there are no more disputable statistics, or facts in your discussion. Just wrong, or right based upon what you believe is undisputable statistics. Is it possible to have a fact-based discussion when one party believes it has all the facts and truth, and the rest of us should start from that premise? You should channel all that aggression into something productive... www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf |
|
cajunaxe
Member
Here living in Paradise!
Posts: 204
|
Post by cajunaxe on Feb 12, 2021 18:36:56 GMT 14
Statistically, that is indisputable? Once you make such proclamations there isn't much left on the table to discuss. Which statistics are your referring to and which organization has published them? The statics that I have read deal with the cost of voter IDs and access. So my questions is, how is it that many of those same people have to show identification for Medicaid Benefits, CHIPS, Social Security Disability Benefits, Food Stamps and other government benefits? You can not receive those benefits without proper identification. If cost is a factor, why is it that my mother in her 80's, on a fixed income and seldom drives can afford to buy it? Because she is white? If it's affordability, the State and Local Governments can address it by income levels. just like it is done for all government benefits. As for District lines equal, weren't they redrawn to meet Civil Rights Concerns and are monitored by the Federal Government? The answer to that question is yes. So redistricting has been done and redone, based upon government mandate. So exactly how much more should we redistrict for 15% of the population? And what about those non-minorities in those districts? Are they allowed to be disenfranchised because of past immoral acts? You don't correct immoral acts with simply imposing them again because of the past. There has to be some area of agreement to alleviate past transgressions without imposing so-called acceptable immoral policy corrections. You see there are no more disputable statistics, or facts in your discussion. Just wrong, or right based upon what you believe is undisputable statistics. Is it possible to have a fact-based discussion when one party believes it has all the facts and truth, and the rest of us should start from that premise? You should channel all that aggression into something productive... www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdfI rest my case. Try reading sites occasionally that don't agree with your narrative. But since you have all the truth, you are really not interested in discussions. Well, only if we come to the table and agree with your premise that your stats and information are indisputable. |
|
|
|
Post by RaginCajun77 on Feb 12, 2021 19:28:13 GMT 14
There's no fear hear buddy about hearing the other side, it's been heard numerous times. When it comes to the use of government funded facilities, the standard should be the same across the board with equal access for all as long is it allows others that may not agree to also participate. Tax-payer funded facilities, fixed it for you. Tax payers have the right to be able to listen to a speaker without interference from the library board/local government. If people aren't interested in the speaker's presentation, guess what they don't have to attend. This boils down to local government not liking the subject matter and creating unnecessary barriers to censor the discussion. Whether you are left, right, or in the middle, this type of interference should worry you tremendously. |
|
|
|
Post by BabbForHeisman on Feb 13, 2021 2:22:00 GMT 14
I rest my case. Try reading sites occasionally that don't agree with your narrative. But since you have all the truth, you are really not interested in discussions. Well, only if we come to the table and agree with your premise that your stats and information are indisputable. Honestly, I’m not sure it’s a good idea to “rest your case” when I don’t think you even have a concept of what case you are resting. My only assertion at this point is that fewer minorities have IDs, therefore voter ID laws have to hit them proportionally harder. If you have alternate information about percentages of different demographics with government IDs, let’s see it. I mean that, I’d actually like to see it. Otherwise, your whole shtick is just a bunch of brainless rhetoric. Also, it’s clear that you try to fit people who disagree with you into a bucket or label, so let me be clear. I support Voter ID requirements. |
|
RedTails
Full Member
Posts: 416
Member is Online
|
Post by RedTails on Feb 13, 2021 5:23:10 GMT 14
Teaching history is fine. Can you point to a place in America where adult citizens who are registered to vote have been prevented from doing so? Punk?? These are people vested in the Leftist victim mentality. If you can't show that major hurdles exist for minority voters across the country. all you need to do is proclaim it as much as possible and vast numbers of people believe it. This is why you can hear the commercials on locally owned minority stations in Lafayette and Baton Rouge proclaim during the election cycles that Republicans will burn their churches down, keep them in failing schools ,etc. Victimization plays well for some of these organizations and many white liberals. It's better to keep people ignorant and angry, then actually educate them on the realities of what is happening in Washington DC and their own state capitals.   |
|
cajunaxe
Member
Here living in Paradise!
Posts: 204
|
Post by cajunaxe on Feb 13, 2021 6:34:03 GMT 14
There's no fear hear buddy about hearing the other side, it's been heard numerous times. When it comes to the use of government funded facilities, the standard should be the same across the board with equal access for all as long is it allows others that may not agree to also participate. Tax-payer funded facilities, fixed it for you. [br Tax payers have the right to be able to listen to a speaker without interference from the library board/local government. If people aren't interested in the speaker's presentation, guess what they don't have to attend. This boils down to local government not liking the subject matter and creating unnecessary barriers to censor the discussion. Whether you are left, right, or in the middle, this type of interference should worry you tremendously. There is an oversight committee for a reason. You may not like it, and I haven't always agreed with their decisions as well. If you and others don't like it, then vote for someone that is willing to remove it from our local government. The Library has a director that has made questionable decisions in the past, and was asked to invite someone else along with Mr. Foster to speak that doesn't call half the community racist. She declined to do so, so they declined her request. He is scheduled to speak at the Dupre Library, so if you want to listen to him feel free to attend. But I doubt you and others in this thread would be upset if someone with another point of view that you don't agree with would have been denied to speak. It's happened several times under this Library Director and numerous times at UL. So if you are really about free speech, then let's work together insuring that all views are given opportunity to speak at our libraries and university. Not just the speakers you align with philosophically with. |
|
cajunaxe
Member
Here living in Paradise!
Posts: 204
|
Post by cajunaxe on Feb 13, 2021 6:39:01 GMT 14
These are people vested in the Leftist victim mentality. If you can't show that major hurdles exist for minority voters across the country. all you need to do is proclaim it as much as possible and vast numbers of people believe it. This is why you can hear the commercials on locally owned minority stations in Lafayette and Baton Rouge proclaim during the election cycles that Republicans will burn their churches down, keep them in failing schools ,etc. Victimization plays well for some of these organizations and many white liberals. It's better to keep people ignorant and angry, then actually educate them on the realities of what is happening in Washington DC and their own state capitals.
Congrats on your post, it's worthy of mention as any of Cajun Rebels. 🤣🤣 |
|
cajunaxe
Member
Here living in Paradise!
Posts: 204
|
Post by cajunaxe on Feb 13, 2021 6:44:46 GMT 14
I rest my case. Try reading sites occasionally that don't agree with your narrative. But since you have all the truth, you are really not interested in discussions. Well, only if we come to the table and agree with your premise that your stats and information are indisputable. Honestly, I’m not sure it’s a good idea to “rest your case” when I don’t think you even have a concept of what case you are resting. My only assertion at this point is that fewer minorities have IDs, therefore voter ID laws have to hit them proportionally harder. If you have alternate information about percentages of different demographics with government IDs, let’s see it. I mean that, I’d actually like to see it. Otherwise, your whole shtick is just a bunch of brainless rhetoric. Also, it’s clear that you try to fit people who disagree with you into a bucket or label, so let me be clear. I support Voter ID requirements. I don't have a problem debating people with different views. Just those that have decided that they have indisputable evidence on the subject matter and they have all the correct information. And any further discussion is just simply denying that premise. |
|
|
|
Post by BabbForHeisman on Feb 13, 2021 6:54:19 GMT 14
Honestly, I’m not sure it’s a good idea to “rest your case” when I don’t think you even have a concept of what case you are resting. My only assertion at this point is that fewer minorities have IDs, therefore voter ID laws have to hit them proportionally harder. If you have alternate information about percentages of different demographics with government IDs, let’s see it. I mean that, I’d actually like to see it. Otherwise, your whole shtick is just a bunch of brainless rhetoric. Also, it’s clear that you try to fit people who disagree with you into a bucket or label, so let me be clear. I support Voter ID requirements. I don't have a problem debating people with different views. Just those that have decided that they have indisputable evidence on the subject matter and they have all the correct information. And any further discussion is just simply denying that premise. I fully agree with you. So where's your data? Just to recap, you had an issue with me saying that the percentage of minorities without government ID is larger. The floor is yours. |
|
|
|
Post by RCajunRunner on Feb 13, 2021 7:49:08 GMT 14
These are people vested in the Leftist victim mentality. If you can't show that major hurdles exist for minority voters across the country. all you need to do is proclaim it as much as possible and vast numbers of people believe it. This is why you can hear the commercials on locally owned minority stations in Lafayette and Baton Rouge proclaim during the election cycles that Republicans will burn their churches down, keep them in failing schools ,etc. Victimization plays well for some of these organizations and many white liberals. It's better to keep people ignorant and angry, then actually educate them on the realities of what is happening in Washington DC and their own state capitals. Oh, shirt! That might be the Comeback Reply of the Day. |
|
cajunaxe
Member
Here living in Paradise!
Posts: 204
|
Post by cajunaxe on Feb 13, 2021 10:20:17 GMT 14
I don't have a problem debating people with different views. Just those that have decided that they have indisputable evidence on the subject matter and they have all the correct information. And any further discussion is just simply denying that premise. I fully agree with you. So where's your data? Just to recap, you had an issue with me saying that the percentage of minorities without government ID is larger. The floor is yours. Let's start with an analysis by a bi-partisan body put together at the UCI-Law Center. Hardly a bastion of Right Wing Conspiracies- Fair Elections During a CrisisSomeone mentioned Alabama as a state with systemic voter suppression, yet more minorities voted in 2016 by percentage with the new voter ID law- Voter Suppression?The Lawsuit against the voter ID Law was thrown out challenging the Constitutionality in Alabama- Judge Throws Out ChallengeHere an insert from an article by Don Hopkins that talks about the many studies on voter ID's and what are the actual affects. "So, when we evaluate research on voter ID laws, it’s critical to assess the strength of the underlying research design. Summarizing a wide range of studies in a 2017 review, Benjamin Highton concluded that “a small number of studies have employed suitable research designs and generally find modest, if any, turnout effects of voter identification laws.”1 Some of the newest evidence reinforces that conclusion and uses high-quality administrative data that can address at least some of the problems that have bedeviled prior studies." What We Know About Voter ID LawsThe one area we might find common ground on if there is one, according to most fair discussions I've read is there is no uniformity of Voter ID Laws from state to state. I think that is something that should be addressed by the Courts. In most of the analysis against the voter ID laws I've read in recent days proclaim cost and accessibility as being problematic for minorities. But when the State of Alabama made non-driving ID's free to low income citizens and minorities, those in opposition moved to the Constitutionality of the Law. On both fronts they lost, there was little to no evidence of voter suppression in 2016 and the most recent election in 2020. Like most of the discussions I disagree with you on, the past isn't a reason to throw every idea out the window that can be remedied with common sense and some federal oversight. I can see where there is some concern for Voter ID Laws, even from far right anti-government citizens without some uniformity. But the cost and access to voter ID's were easily remedied in Alabama. |
|
|
|
Post by BabbForHeisman on Feb 13, 2021 10:35:12 GMT 14
I fully agree with you. So where's your data? Just to recap, you had an issue with me saying that the percentage of minorities without government ID is larger. The floor is yours. Let's start with an analysis by a bi-partisan body put together at the UCI-Law Center. Hardly a bastion of Right Wing Conspiracies- Fair Elections During a CrisisSomeone mentioned Alabama as a state with systemic voter suppression, yet more minorities voted in 2016 by percentage with the new voter ID law- Voter Suppression?The Lawsuit against the voter ID Law was thrown out challenging the Constitutionality in Alabama- Judge Throws Out ChallengeHere an insert from an article by Don Hopkins that talks about the many studies on voter ID's and what are the actual affects. "So, when we evaluate research on voter ID laws, it’s critical to assess the strength of the underlying research design. Summarizing a wide range of studies in a 2017 review, Benjamin Highton concluded that “a small number of studies have employed suitable research designs and generally find modest, if any, turnout effects of voter identification laws.”1 Some of the newest evidence reinforces that conclusion and uses high-quality administrative data that can address at least some of the problems that have bedeviled prior studies." What We Know About Voter ID LawsThe one area we might find common ground on if there is one, according to most fair discussions I've read is there is no uniformity of Voter ID Laws from state to state. I think that is something that should be addressed by the Courts. In most of the analysis against the voter ID laws I've read in recent days proclaim cost and accessibility as being problematic for minorities. But when the State of Alabama made non-driving ID's free to low income citizens and minorities, those in opposition moved to the Constitutionality of the Law. On both fronts they lost, there was little to no evidence of voter suppression in 2016 and the most recent election in 2020. Like most of the discussions I disagree with you on, the past isn't a reason to throw every idea out the window that can be remedied with common sense and some federal oversight. I can see where there is some concern for Voter ID Laws, even from far right anti-government citizens without some uniformity. But the cost and access to voter ID's were easily remedied in Alabama. An interesting response, sure...but again you are totally ignoring the question. The problem you have in discussions is that anyone who doesn't align with you is automatically bucketed into your "far left" label. Which is why you seem to have argued a bunch of points that I am not making. I have even mentioned that I am for Voter ID regulations. So here's the thing. I said that comparatively, more minorities lack government issued IDs. I said this was a fact, and you had a problem with it. And yet you seem to have tried to prove it in all ways except actually addressing this fact. If you want to start a discussion, let's start here: do you think that data studies which show fewer minorities have government issued ID's is true? If not, why? Is the data faked? Do you have the real data? |
|
|
|
Post by BabbForHeisman on Feb 19, 2021 15:56:57 GMT 14
Let's start with an analysis by a bi-partisan body put together at the UCI-Law Center. Hardly a bastion of Right Wing Conspiracies- Fair Elections During a CrisisSomeone mentioned Alabama as a state with systemic voter suppression, yet more minorities voted in 2016 by percentage with the new voter ID law- Voter Suppression?The Lawsuit against the voter ID Law was thrown out challenging the Constitutionality in Alabama- Judge Throws Out ChallengeHere an insert from an article by Don Hopkins that talks about the many studies on voter ID's and what are the actual affects. "So, when we evaluate research on voter ID laws, it’s critical to assess the strength of the underlying research design. Summarizing a wide range of studies in a 2017 review, Benjamin Highton concluded that “a small number of studies have employed suitable research designs and generally find modest, if any, turnout effects of voter identification laws.”1 Some of the newest evidence reinforces that conclusion and uses high-quality administrative data that can address at least some of the problems that have bedeviled prior studies." What We Know About Voter ID LawsThe one area we might find common ground on if there is one, according to most fair discussions I've read is there is no uniformity of Voter ID Laws from state to state. I think that is something that should be addressed by the Courts. In most of the analysis against the voter ID laws I've read in recent days proclaim cost and accessibility as being problematic for minorities. But when the State of Alabama made non-driving ID's free to low income citizens and minorities, those in opposition moved to the Constitutionality of the Law. On both fronts they lost, there was little to no evidence of voter suppression in 2016 and the most recent election in 2020. Like most of the discussions I disagree with you on, the past isn't a reason to throw every idea out the window that can be remedied with common sense and some federal oversight. I can see where there is some concern for Voter ID Laws, even from far right anti-government citizens without some uniformity. But the cost and access to voter ID's were easily remedied in Alabama. An interesting response, sure...but again you are totally ignoring the question. The problem you have in discussions is that anyone who doesn't align with you is automatically bucketed into your "far left" label. Which is why you seem to have argued a bunch of points that I am not making. I have even mentioned that I am for Voter ID regulations. So here's the thing. I said that comparatively, more minorities lack government issued IDs. I said this was a fact, and you had a problem with it. And yet you seem to have tried to prove it in all ways except actually addressing this fact. If you want to start a discussion, let's start here: do you think that data studies which show fewer minorities have government issued ID's is true? If not, why? Is the data faked? Do you have the real data? Axe, your google search is taking a really long time man |
|
cajuns36
Full Member
Posts: 664
Member is Online
|
Post by cajuns36 on Feb 19, 2021 16:17:21 GMT 14
An interesting response, sure...but again you are totally ignoring the question. The problem you have in discussions is that anyone who doesn't align with you is automatically bucketed into your "far left" label. Which is why you seem to have argued a bunch of points that I am not making. I have even mentioned that I am for Voter ID regulations. So here's the thing. I said that comparatively, more minorities lack government issued IDs. I said this was a fact, and you had a problem with it. And yet you seem to have tried to prove it in all ways except actually addressing this fact. If you want to start a discussion, let's start here: do you think that data studies which show fewer minorities have government issued ID's is true? If not, why? Is the data faked? Do you have the real data? Axe, your google search is taking a really long time man Do you think the lack of IDs in minorities is some systemic problem? Or maybe just maybe a choice? Or lifestyle? |
|
